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As you may or may not be aware welling United no longer have any youth teams of any age. It has been decided that the club will sever all ties as of Aug 1St. The club demanded 20k from the youth to enable them to continue using the badge and name. After 12 years of association with the club and producing many players who have appeared for the first team I guess welling United think they are no longer the future. It's such a shame that real grass roots and community association count for nothing these days. The club should hold their head in shame. 



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Vince appeared at the WUSA AGM to make the same point... and kept interrupting people and not letting them get a word in edgeways. However there is an academy which is in the process of being set up at Welling United.

Whilst I don't know the ins and outs of funding that the teams get or who controls what, I do recall a meeting that several of us attended a number of years ago at Kingsmoor, when the club was in severe financial problems. We asked for help and in so many words were told that they didn't want to give anything to Welling United, they just wanted the use of the name...

We will see what happens with the academy going forward, Tristan has a good record with academy's over the years and hopefully that will continue.

Good luck to all that were involved in the former set up in the future.



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That's 300 kids that the club has washed it's hands of. Call me daft but surely the main club supports the youth development as opposed to the youth team propping up the first team. The "Academy" will only be used for a money making scheme to get 16 year old apprentices in. Tristan Lewis has an appalling record in development and academy work ( ask Hayes and Yeading ).
I really can't believe it's being taken so lightly. The community scheme went out to schools and promoted the club. Of course they got paid for doing it but it brought interest to the club. The way it's going we won't have a club if this is how we treat people. Fortunately I do know the ins and outs and I can tell you it doesn't make good reading. Looks like the club will now just have to pay through the nose for players from now on . It's truly embarrassing.

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Where were those 300 kids on match days for last however many years? "Money making scheme" you say...Sounds good to me.

Better than the club not getting anything back from having the name used.

Who are these "many players" and where are they now?



-- Edited by Jamison on Thursday 29th of June 2017 04:25:24 PM

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Billybob wrote:

That's 300 kids that the club has washed it's hands of. Call me daft but surely the main club supports the youth development as opposed to the youth team propping up the first team. The "Academy" will only be used for a money making scheme to get 16 year old apprentices in. Tristan Lewis has an appalling record in development and academy work ( ask Hayes and Yeading ).
I really can't believe it's being taken so lightly. The community scheme went out to schools and promoted the club. Of course they got paid for doing it but it brought interest to the club. The way it's going we won't have a club if this is how we treat people. Fortunately I do know the ins and outs and I can tell you it doesn't make good reading. Looks like the club will now just have to pay through the nose for players from now on . It's truly embarrassing.


 How much "interest" exactly in terms of families, bums on seats etc..etc...

I don't know the ins and outs of the youth and/or academy set ups (as you clearly do) but I would like to know how many lads have progressed through to the first team??

As Polo has pointed out the end of the WUSA AGM for the last few years has turned into a party political broadcast by Vince who is either unwilling or unable to entertain the opinions of others and/or answer a straight question particularly when it came down to helping the club in it's hour of need back in 2010....



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Surely you don't need me to tell you names. As a fan I would assume you would know. The team that Jim Dean started twelve years ago produced 6 that I can recall who played for the first team. Archie Johnson ( how does the chant go ? He's one of our own ) Joey Taylor, Louis Birch, Harvey Brand, Billy Armstrong, Stevie Gunner and probably a few more. OK only a few went on to play 4 or more games but it's an achievement. Yes those kids and families attended. My team certainly attended regularly and an awful lot came for the red too days. Your memories are too short chaps. Of course they would use the name but I wouldn't expect a youth team to prop up a mismanaged club just to see the funds disappear. Take a step back guys and look at what you're saying. I know you love the club. So do I. But does it seem right to you ?

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Billybob wrote:

Surely you don't need me to tell you names. As a fan I would assume you would know. The team that Jim Dean started twelve years ago produced 6 that I can recall who played for the first team. Archie Johnson ( how does the chant go ? He's one of our own ) Joey Taylor, Louis Birch, Harvey Brand, Billy Armstrong, Stevie Gunner and probably a few more. OK only a few went on to play 4 or more games but it's an achievement. Yes those kids and families attended. My team certainly attended regularly and an awful lot came for the red too days. Your memories are too short chaps. Of course they would use the name but I wouldn't expect a youth team to prop up a mismanaged club just to see the funds disappear. Take a step back guys and look at what you're saying. I know you love the club. So do I. But does it seem right to you ?


 So in short two blokes with a handful of Conference South appearances (mainly as subs) and the rest who have appeared in the odd London Senior Cup tie.

I would like to see a thriving youth set up as we had back in the 70's and 80's but that doesn't exist any more (for us or anyone else at our level)



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Those players have had little or no impact at the club, and have made the club no money in the process.

How much did all these players parents pay in subs per season?

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Beginning to understand what Vince was up against. OK have it your way. Close ranks like half a dozen of you do and don't let anyone have a differing opinion. That's what's landed you guys in trouble and will continue to do so. Carry on holding your " detectorist" style meetings and wait for it all to cave in. Trust me it's not as far away as you might think. I continue to wish the club luck and wish them well , I just wish someone actually had some vision.

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Billybob wrote:

Beginning to understand what Vince was up against. OK have it your way. Close ranks like half a dozen of you do and don't let anyone have a differing opinion. That's what's landed you guys in trouble and will continue to do so. Carry on holding your " detectorist" style meetings and wait for it all to cave in. Trust me it's not as far away as you might think. I continue to wish the club luck and wish them well , I just wish someone actually had some vision.


 I think you will find that the supporters got this club out of trouble rather than in to it..

This is a forum for different opinions - some I agree with, plenty I don't!

But I won't throw my toys out of the pram if people don't share my viewpoint..



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Blimey....someones tired arent they!

Not bitter at all no no no....not bitter never

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I've been going to Welling since 1985. I still don't know what Jim Dean looks like. 

There's obviously not been a close relationship between the club and youth set up and this is also reflected in the lack of players who've made the first team. 



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Maybe if yourself or Vince Brown could give of a breakdown of the money that the youth teams and the 300 kids bring to the footbal club people would have a better understanding.

But instead it seems the only questions that are not answerable by either is on that subject.



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With the exception of people associated with the club past and present if you were to ask a parent of a child at Kingsmore what league Welling are in they wouldn't have a clue.

Last season a young lad came into the shop with a WU Kinsmore top on. He was a bit chatty and asked me what team I supported. After I said well Welling of course he replied no what proper team .

I rest my case



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The WU management take decisions, we hope, in the best interest of the First team, that we all support. If, in their opinion, there is no benefit in having a youth set-up then that's their decision. 



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And I'm glad you always trust your management as you have in the past. And the fact a young kid was in your shop has proved the exact opposite. It's shown you had a random lad ( who wouldn't normally be there ) spending money in your shop with no doubt his parents buying refreshments and tickets to the game. Not bad for someone who actually doesn't support the club. Not a great point my friend.

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Billybob wrote:

And I'm glad you always trust your management as you have in the past. And the fact a young kid was in your shop has proved the exact opposite. It's shown you had a random lad ( who wouldn't normally be there ) spending money in your shop with no doubt his parents buying refreshments and tickets to the game. Not bad for someone who actually doesn't support the club. Not a great point my friend.


 only came in to look and chat never spent a penny



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Squarevanman wrote:
Billybob wrote:

And I'm glad you always trust your management as you have in the past. And the fact a young kid was in your shop has proved the exact opposite. It's shown you had a random lad ( who wouldn't normally be there ) spending money in your shop with no doubt his parents buying refreshments and tickets to the game. Not bad for someone who actually doesn't support the club. Not a great point my friend.


 only came in to look and chat never spent a penny


 Toilets only for the staff?



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I'm involved in kids football and don't know the ins and outs of the Welling arrangement with Kingsmoor, however to me it just appears to to be an arrangement to wear the badge/use the name, as far as I'm aware no path to the main club?

I don't believe Welling severing ties will have any impact on either party, other than the 'rebranding' of the youth teams.

Graham

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I find it strange we had a so called Community officer yet in the years we had him i would like to know what he did do engage the community with the club, i don't care about the kids teams being cited as working in community as i would be sure those running the kids teams have made a nice few quid over the years (having a seperate kit deal for one and selling hundreds of kits each year, plus getting grants) and at least for part of the tenure a wage

I am sure the club will get a youth section again where it is actually the club and where the club will benefit all round and may even bring some kids through to the first team.

What really makes me think who cares.. Is when the club were on the brink of going out of business, Kingsmoor (Welling United Youth) were asked to help us and they said no. Says it all really. They've done precious little for the club and done well out of the club.

How are the club better off now than they were, in community terms or financially or with engaging the locals? they aren't.

 



-- Edited by TheGhostOfJodyBrown on Friday 30th of June 2017 10:51:58 PM

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I have been to development squad games and supported the team over the years and am sorry that it has ended. There is a boy who lives near me who tells me with pride that he plays for Welling at his age level.

However, it is clear that there are politics behind the scenes and we can only try and pick out the facts.

Had Vince managed to turn up to the WUSA meeting on time, maybe he could have put up his allegations when Tristan was present to answer them. Tristan was there for more than an hour.



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Squarevanman wrote:
Billybob wrote:

And I'm glad you always trust your management as you have in the past. And the fact a young kid was in your shop has proved the exact opposite. It's shown you had a random lad ( who wouldn't normally be there ) spending money in your shop with no doubt his parents buying refreshments and tickets to the game. Not bad for someone who actually doesn't support the club. Not a great point my friend.


 only came in to look and chat never spent a penny


 It's not a great point, it's a really great point.

1 kid in the shop is a success?

Where did the money go from kit deal?

Where does the grant money go and how much was it?

I'll ask again how much do parents pay in subs?

Where have these 300 kids been in the last 3 years on match days?

 

I know most local clubs charge around £300 per season to parents, for you that would of ment £90,000.

Are the players you mentioned really a achievement when Dartford run academy and have had 3/4 established players in the first team from it and one of them will be playing for us next year.

All questions that nobody has answered to back up this argument and convince anyone that it has been a success.

 



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Sounds like whoever was running the Youth teams got caught with their hand in the till.

300 kids x weekly subs x annual kit sales x sponsorship x grants x wages from after school clubs................

GAME OVER.... TIME TO PAINT YOUR VAN ....


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I was born under a wandering star....sorry that's paint your wagon

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Did Steven finnan play in our youth team?

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He was signed as a 16 year old after Wimbledon released him and joined what was then the YRS scheme that I think Kevin Hales coached.



-- Edited by Polo on Saturday 1st of July 2017 09:43:59 AM

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Polo wrote:

He was signed as a 16 year old after Wimbledon released him and joined what was then the YRS scheme that I think Kevin Hales coached.



-- Edited by Polo on Saturday 1st of July 2017 09:43:59 AM


 YRS? I bought it was YTS, with costs paid by government training scheme?

I think Barnes came via the same route before he went off to Birmingham?



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Jamison wrote:

Where does the grant money go and how much was it? 


 Was there a kit deal? I understood that kit was paid for out of players subs and that the reason that they went for the cheaper option of Macron over Jako. Whether that is the case, I don't know. As I said previously, had Vince turned up on time, maybe he could have raised the arguments with Tristan.



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Kit deal ?? Course there is no kit deal. I have to raise over 2k each year to kit my boys out and yes macron do us a better deal. No grants I'm afraid. It doesn't come out of subs. Gentlemen you live in a different world

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I wouldn't be raising money for Kit when 300 parents are paying for the privilege. Back to the development of players.

300 Kids a season playing for "the club", 12 years, Thats a lot of kids and out of all those kids, Archie broke through and has made over 10 appearances, I am not sure how we will cope bringing through players now that development pathway will stop.

I take it you got a deal with Macron where you sold the kit at what it cost you then? With no mark up and no kick back or freebies to sell on?, Absolutely as if the club controlled the kits for the youth teams they couldn't get as better deal could they?

No Grants? Not a grant from the league then? or other community grants? While you used the club's name?

These must be made up then (only what i found in 30 seconds, i am sure there will be others, and thats without the Football Conference Community Grants each season, which i am sure one year was £30,000 and i am not sure if we get that every season, we obviously being you, the youth / community set up.

www.newsshopper.co.uk/sport/9377525.Lions_hero_hands_over_cheque_to_Wings_scheme/
http://www.footballfoundation.org.uk/news/archive/pre-2012-press-releases/??entryid15=27530&entryid15=27339&p=8
www.cash-4-clubs.com/past-winners/greater-london/welling-united-youth-1.php

It must have been so hard to scrape by with circa 90k a year in subs (according to estimated figures early in the thread, plus grants and kit deals) Its not beyond the realms that the youth section raked in over £1million over 12 years off the back of the clubs name and gave the club what seems like naff all and stood by and would have watched it go out of business.

Close the door on your way out.



-- Edited by TheGhostOfJodyBrown on Saturday 1st of July 2017 08:24:32 PM

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If i could open the door you so kindly shut in my face I would like to just put a little sense into it.
You're right, perhaps Vince could and should have taken more notice and been a little less obtuse.
Secondly I apologise for saying a few things I shouldn't have said .
My take is that not everything is about getting something back. I most certainly don't buy kit and sell it for a mark up and get kick backs. I simply see how many boys I've got and how much kit I need. I then go out and find a sponsor and ask them to buy the kit. It's not sold to the players and no money is made. The subs I receive each week go to the club. On that point you're right but firstly I pay the ref £25. I pay linesmen if we are lucky to have them. The remainder goes to pitch hire and general running of the club. I don't get paid. I give my time and expect nothing in return except to see kids enjoying themselves.
The main issue I feel stemmed from the problems welling had a few years back. Yes perhaps the youth could and should have helped but it was clear the club was being mismanaged and I guess they felt it was throwing good money after bad. Maybe not the right choice.
I think the academy and the youth really should have had closer links. When the kids got to 16 there was nowhere else to go. The last development squad didn't receive anything from the club. They paid for their travel and coaches via the parents and some generous sponsor. I think at this stage both sides should have been working together. The reason those players didn't come through is because there was no route or assistance.
I'm sure I goes both ways and we could have tried harder but the work the community scheme did/ does is outstanding. It keeps the club in the public eye and does its best to promote the club. Once again I think it could be run better by people who know how to run things but non the less the intentions are there and they work with " kids ". Surely that's the main point. It's the kids who suffer from silly squabbles...
I'd like that door to be re opened.

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Billybob wrote:

If i could open the door you so kindly shut in my face I would like to just put a little sense into it.
 The subs I receive each week go to the club. On that point you're right but firstly I pay the ref £25. I pay linesmen if we are lucky to have them. The remainder goes to pitch hire and general running of the club

I'd like that door to be re opened.


 I bet you would

 

 



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Cannot possibly comment on the youth team debate as an individual case as I do not know the facts enough other than what has been written here.

However I do believe it is right for the future of the club moving forward to develop a successful academy and I also believe we need to have a community arm at the club that needs to engage more with the local community.

I also think it would be benifical to the club moving forward to have some sort of scouting network in place to support the academy and first team.


For me the community arm should be a cross between the work of Paul White and Jim and Vince and co. Have a club community officer/team to visit schools etc and develop the junior wings project and match day experiences and try and encourage the fan of the future and be available to supporters to talk to on match days.


-- Edited by morph on Sunday 2nd of July 2017 12:13:41 PM



-- Edited by morph on Sunday 2nd of July 2017 12:21:47 PM

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Some of you may or not remember me but I was a part of the youth section at Welling for many years, as a player then into a coach. I was involved around the time of money being asked from the youth section as well as various other elements of this debate which I hope may shed some light. The youth section, at first, was run very well, with great ambitions and lots of desire to stitch long term connections with the main club. The first issue the youth section faced was securing its own tenancy at Camdale Road, which from memory (and for some reason) cost the youth section a lot of money in solicitor fees, rent and issues with the council. This issue arose around the same time the main club was in financial difficulty. I do know a payment was made from the youth section to the main club, as I was one of the committee members that voted in favour of this, but I do not remember how much the payment was.

I was the Under 18 manager around the time the first academy was set up by then first team coach, Keith Levett. The connection then was strong, their was crossing signing of players and some eventful matches under lights in the FA Youth Cup. We had a succession of teams, all competing very well in the Kent Youth League, plus the academy started to gain in popularity, albeit languished a long way behind Dartford's superior academy (run then by the current Jamie Coyle). One of the players that came through our crop was Ryan Flack. The club was going in the right direction, however, towards the end of my time at the club, their began to be "camps" in the youth section between the people that saw Welling United the club as the superior and those who believed the Youth section had more right and ultimately, power. We paid a lot of money into the youth section with sponsorship, the dearest subs in the Kent Youth League (at that time) and extortionate signing on fee (at that time). We also started having a lot of restrictions, such as who we got balls from, the kit supplied by a designated provider. All these elements started to come through strong and it left a sour taste in my mouth. This was all pushed by someone who I will not name, but is still very much involved. I left the following season due to differences with the youth section and not looked back since. I am still coaching youth football and have to say with all the other "higher" youth associated clubs, my time at Welling did prove some of my worries to be true.

It comes as no surprise ties have been cut. As stated, Jamie Coyle is a phenomenal coach, especially at Youth level and this is seen with his work at Dartford and Maidstone. Jack Parkinson and Hugo have also had huge success with youth football. If, and this is just a summary of what I believe it is, the three members of the management team feel they can build a better and more fruitful youth team, starting from the top down, I believe this is the best thing for Welling as a club. Sadly for the youth section, they will lose affiliation only. There is no reason they cannot go back to being Kingsmoor and continuing their work in the community in the Welling/Plumstead border.

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And it all turned out nicely in the end......

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Jamison wrote:

And it all turned out nicely in the end......


 Has the fat "lady" sung yet?



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RealAleDrinker wrote:
Jamison wrote:

And it all turned out nicely in the end......


 Has the fat "lady" sung yet?


 I just remeber a certain persons words when they 'hijacked' a meeting about how we would have 'no youth'. Now the club have a fantastic partnership and a proper link to the club, not just using the name and giving nothing. 

So id say she is just doing some lung exercises.



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