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Post Info TOPIC: Dartford v Welling United match thread
Eastbourne Wing


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I'm not going to talk about results, tactics, players, form, consistency, budget etc. All I will say is that all the good that the club have done, and continues to do seems at odds with Warren's message, discipline and attitude.

I'd say he's hanging on by a thread based on hope (us being used to Welling being awful for a good few years now), and him overseeing our survival last year.

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Treacle


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Difficult to comment when I didn't go to the game, but I was completely unsurprised by the result

To be honest I've skipped the last couple of games - mostly down to work commitments, but there's no doubt that the product on the pitch hasn't been appealing. I've found the style of football in most games to be tedious and predictable - very limited in terms of tactical adaptability. From the very first game at Taunton, there seems to be long periods of the game where the ball is thumped up to Azeez, and in a division where everyone has a 6ft 4" monster at the back, it just seems like meat and drink for most teams. Chelmsford, Fisher, St Albans, Taunton - they all followed similar pattern of the opposing defence finding it easy to cope with the direct style of play. On occasion where caution has been thrown to the wind and we've got it down the flanks it has produced great results - Cheshunt, 20 minutes at Hemel etc.

Football is a results business of course, but when the club is doing so much off the field and trying to regularly appeal to fans to get 1,000+ to home games, then I'm afraid it has to be an entertainment business too. I know Steve King isn't popular round these parts anymore but I maintain that the style of football I saw that season was the best I've seen in 30+ years of watching. The criticism was that he was a 'money manager' but I feel certain what we were spending then wasn't what we are spending now. The immediate impact he has wherever he goes is there for all to see - take a look at Gloucester City. Has Warren got the same contacts and nous at this level? Its not his fault if he hasn't - he just hasn't. I like the bloke a lot but with the resources we have, our recruitment at this level needs to be better. As Polo and others have commented, why are we throwing money at journeymen pros with dodgy injury records when we could get lads really kitted out for this level with a point to prove?

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Johnny Hartley


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This is a confusing and contradictory time, as there have been some surprisingly disappointing results recently, but that was after a great start. We are still only two points off 6th place, so the situation has positives, and negatives and isn't desperate, but is also worrying.

Welling has had too much change in players and managers, our turnover of 13 permanent managers in the last 8 years is ridiculous, none lasting longer than a year, so rushing to yet another change of manager with no guarantee of long term improvement is just repeating past mistakes. But we can't keep having Dartford performances.

I think Warren has done a great job attracting players pre-season, as it will have been hard selling us to players when we had finished bottom two for the previous two seasons. And then immediately turning that team into a top half of the table team. Now we are clearly more successful we should be more attractive to join.

I totally agree our best performances have been playing up the wings, rather than relying on long balls from defence. I think the back 3 was good to try out, it is something I thought was right for us, but a third of the season in I just dont think we have the right players to play a back 3, so need to switch to a back 4 to make us steadier at the back, with fewer gaps in defence. I don't see it needs a major player turnover, as our best performances this season have been fantastic, just as our worst performances have been awful, and it is this inconsistency that is such a puzzle to fix.

Oddly enough, Welling and Warren remind me of what is going on at Liverpool, where players are making mistakes leading to goals, their midfield isn't working as it is too old, ours hasn't been working recently as it simply wasn't doing basics of closing down, dropping back to defend and pushing up to help support the attack. That was all right against Hungerford, but then went wrong again against Dartford, so that inconsistency again. So going 4 4 2 for the next third of the season, aiming to play out from the back more, particularly down the wings, would hopefully steady the team. I will make these points at the meet the manager meeting on Friday, hopefully as many others here can make it too, as it is so impressive how the club are so keen to engage with the fans, and the interview after Dartford show Warren is going into the tank to work out how to fix things, so fan suggestions will be a useful addition into the mix that he considers, because everyone here wants the team to do well.



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jh
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Johnny Hartley wrote:

This is a confusing and contradictory time, as there have been some surprisingly disappointing results recently, but that was after a great start. We are still only two points off 6th place, so the situation has positives, and negatives and isn't desperate, but is also worrying.

Welling has had too much change in players and managers, our turnover of 13 permanent managers in the last 8 years is ridiculous, none lasting longer than a year, so rushing to yet another change of manager with no guarantee of long term improvement is just repeating past mistakes. But we can't keep having Dartford performances.

I think Warren has done a great job attracting players pre-season, as it will have been hard selling us to players when we had finished bottom two for the previous two seasons. And then immediately turning that team into a top half of the table team. Now we are clearly more successful we should be more attractive to join.

I totally agree our best performances have been playing up the wings, rather than relying on long balls from defence. I think the back 3 was good to try out, it is something I thought was right for us, but a third of the season in I just dont think we have the right players to play a back 3, so need to switch to a back 4 to make us steadier at the back, with fewer gaps in defence. I don't see it needs a major player turnover, as our best performances this season have been fantastic, just as our worst performances have been awful, and it is this inconsistency that is such a puzzle to fix.

Oddly enough, Welling and Warren remind me of what is going on at Liverpool, where players are making mistakes leading to goals, their midfield isn't working as it is too old, ours hasn't been working recently as it simply wasn't doing basics of closing down, dropping back to defend and pushing up to help support the attack. That was all right against Hungerford, but then went wrong again against Dartford, so that inconsistency again. So going 4 4 2 for the next third of the season, aiming to play out from the back more, particularly down the wings, would hopefully steady the team. I will make these points at the meet the manager meeting on Friday, hopefully as many others here can make it too, as it is so impressive how the club are so keen to engage with the fans, and the interview after Dartford show Warren is going into the tank to work out how to fix things, so fan suggestions will be a useful addition into the mix that he considers, because everyone here wants the team to do well.

 I will keep it short and sweet.

 

The manager has lost the players, he has lost the fans, so whilst you make a point about turnover of managers, I would rather search for the right man, than have the wrong man in charge and Feeney is the wrong man. 

 

Belittling a derby, because it does not have 60,000 supporters at it.... read the room Warren. I wish you well where ever you go.



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Welling and Liverpool in the same sentence.
Comparisons of this nature are making you begin to sound like Feeney.
Bravo.

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N Jones


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All im going to say at this point is I wouldn't be surprised if "meet the manager evening" doesn't go ahead, and perhaps after recent events that might not be a bad thing

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N Jones
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I always go to this game with glass half empty but even I was not expecting that!

The results and performances (Ebbsfleet apart) have been getting worse but last night might actuslly make the top 10 of worst days watching Welling and, with 40 years to pick from, that is quite an "accolade"

For me if you play 3/5 at the back when you have ball playing centre backs which we don't. Most clubs in this division have one or two giant centre halves who head it and kick it and leave the football to the rest of the team. Dartford had two last night and, yet again, we launch it down their throat all night. Parry and Sendles White are decent centre backs but they are not Bobby Moore - I bet they wish they played against us week after week as they would find that very easy. 

If you are going to play route one then you need runners in midfield to get around the field. In the first half last night we had no legs at all in midfield and it showed! We have recruited a guy from Chelmsford who wants to play at his own pace  (not exactly struggling since he left are they...) and another guy who according to his Wikipedia page retired in September...?!

And then the "strikers" Azeez works hard but it's a thankless task up front with these tactics and last night we introduce a 33 year old who has played naff all football in the last two years and was blowing after half an hour...?! It's very very lazy recruitment and that's being polite ....

And the cherry on the cake last night was the post match interview. Throwing the players under the bus (again), no personal accountability  (again) and topped off with arrogance, if not contempt, towards the supporters who turned out in good numbers last night and were "treated" to that s**t show! If I ignored the accent and shut my eyes i could almost have been listening to our old mate Jody Brown....

 

 



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MarkX


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I was thinking Jody Brown to Mr WN

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Absolutely shocking yet again, the warning signs have been there for weeks and yet nothing has been done about it. Tactically, Feeney doesn't have a clue. We have one approach and when it doesn't work we fold. Anybody with half a brain can see that since we have gone to 5 at the back the performances and results have drastically worsened. Yet, our clueless manager keeps sticking with it either because he has no other ideas or because he wants to stick by the current set of players who don't work together. Not all of this is the manager's fault (although he did sign the lot of them), the players have to take some of the blame. You cannot play with 3 centre halves and concede the amount that we have recently, 9 in the last 2 away games is unacceptable. McKenzie-Lyle has rightly taken the plaudits recently but he had a shocker last night, where is Myles Roberts? We have absolutely no width or attacking bite yet the manager decides to sign a 33-year-old has been striker who hasn't played in the last two years and ran out of breath just getting up off the bench. I'm all for giving managers the opportunity to fix things, and we have gone through far too many in recent years, but when the man in charge is so stubborn that he refuses to change the tactics that are quite clearly holding us back then the decision needs to be taken from above. We have some very winnable games coming up against lower-table opposition and I was all for giving him the next few games to see if he could turn it around, but after the interview last night it is quite obvious that he has lost the plot. He's lost the dressing room, lost the fans, has no new ideas, and with all of his disciplinary issues is a liability on the touchline. I know the chairman reads the forum, and if he sees this all I want to say is please for the love of god put us out of this misery. Feeney out.

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Treacle


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N Jones wrote:

All im going to say at this point is I wouldn't be surprised if "meet the manager evening" doesn't go ahead, and perhaps after recent events that might not be a bad thing

 Would be a real shame if it didn't (I'm not there so doesn't mean much to me personally)

Its at this very time when a 'meet the manager' event is exactly what's needed. I know most of the lads who would go and unlike some fans forum's, I think we have fans who are for the most part civil and warm in their questioning style. It's the ideal chance for the manager to articulate his own frustrations too and maybe share some of the stuff we don't know about (as much as he is able to do so). 

If we only ever have them when the club is doing well and winning games, it seems like a pointless exercise to me. As someone who leads and manages people for a living and has done for donkey's years, the people who you want to support you need to hear from you at the most difficult times to get them on board. Hiding away from the tough moments and only coming out on show when all is well, is the exact opposite of good leadership

I only hope that manager and fans alike make this a meaningful and constructive session 

 

 



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Johnny Hartley


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The thing that struck me when I started coming again under Peter Taylor's time was the quietly disappointed atmosphere, it wasn't angry, just quiet and disappointed. So while we have played well this season it has been nice to look around in matches at the faces and see how excited and involved the fans are watching the game, as we have something to cheer again, which hasn't been the case for a long time. I am sure the meet the manager evening will be similarly positive, as it is set up by WUSA, so comes from a positive supportive background, so I am sure concerns will be expressed in a constructive way. I remember in one job I did 20% of staff were to be sacked, and the bosses hid from the staff, except one, who held engagement meetings with staff to understand their concerns and produce answers, and I was so impressed with that, as it is no point having a manager who disappears when things are difficult, far better to be visible and there to address concerns.

Just answering a point about my comparison of the problems us and Liverpool have, I am not comparing us to them technically, it is just that it is so interesting to see the problems Klopp is having, as after years of success his team have really fallen apart in the League, and in his interviews for the first time ever he is hesitant and doesn't have the answers to fixing the problems caused by his players making individual mistakes, and them no longer dominating matches as they used to do, and them being inconsistent, and it just reminds me of our inconsistency, so we have played some brilliant football, as well as poor football, and it is frustrating not to play that brilliant football more often, when we know we have that ability in the team, but it hasnt been showing recently. So I was just meaning both teams have to work out how to play better more consistently. I think our problems will be easier to fix, if we build from the back with 4 4 2, play more accurately up the wings, that gives us more possession and chance to play the quality football we were playing earlier on, as I just want to see us play like that again!

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jh
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Spills wrote:
Johnny Hartley wrote:

This is a confusing and contradictory time, as there have been some surprisingly disappointing results recently, but that was after a great start. We are still only two points off 6th place, so the situation has positives, and negatives and isn't desperate, but is also worrying.

Welling has had too much change in players and managers, our turnover of 13 permanent managers in the last 8 years is ridiculous, none lasting longer than a year, so rushing to yet another change of manager with no guarantee of long term improvement is just repeating past mistakes. But we can't keep having Dartford performances.

I think Warren has done a great job attracting players pre-season, as it will have been hard selling us to players when we had finished bottom two for the previous two seasons. And then immediately turning that team into a top half of the table team. Now we are clearly more successful we should be more attractive to join.

I totally agree our best performances have been playing up the wings, rather than relying on long balls from defence. I think the back 3 was good to try out, it is something I thought was right for us, but a third of the season in I just dont think we have the right players to play a back 3, so need to switch to a back 4 to make us steadier at the back, with fewer gaps in defence. I don't see it needs a major player turnover, as our best performances this season have been fantastic, just as our worst performances have been awful, and it is this inconsistency that is such a puzzle to fix.

Oddly enough, Welling and Warren remind me of what is going on at Liverpool, where players are making mistakes leading to goals, their midfield isn't working as it is too old, ours hasn't been working recently as it simply wasn't doing basics of closing down, dropping back to defend and pushing up to help support the attack. That was all right against Hungerford, but then went wrong again against Dartford, so that inconsistency again. So going 4 4 2 for the next third of the season, aiming to play out from the back more, particularly down the wings, would hopefully steady the team. I will make these points at the meet the manager meeting on Friday, hopefully as many others here can make it too, as it is so impressive how the club are so keen to engage with the fans, and the interview after Dartford show Warren is going into the tank to work out how to fix things, so fan suggestions will be a useful addition into the mix that he considers, because everyone here wants the team to do well.

 I will keep it short and sweet.

 

The manager has lost the players, he has lost the fans, so whilst you make a point about turnover of managers, I would rather search for the right man, than have the wrong man in charge and Feeney is the wrong man. 

 

Belittling a derby, because it does not have 60,000 supporters at it.... read the room Warren. I wish you well where ever you go.

 Obviously i haven't been for many years, but watching from afar, great achievements by Paul Whitehouse & the board. But i feel the players all seem to be individuals who seem to be pampered & think their royalty, now i maybe wrong as i don't see what goes on in the bar after the match. Now as for Mr feeney who the feck does he think he is ? Talking to the Northern Irish side of the clan, his name doesn't roll tongue as one of Northern Ireland great footballers. Love to know where & how many times he played in front of 60.000 ? .. Well Fab & i were thinking of coming to PVR again, but not while his there. I do wish who ever interviewed him last night had ask a few pressing question, like its your team out there, so how can you pick out one individual & these performances are happening week in week out. 

I'm sure it won't belong before he tell us, i have never played or managed at the level i have ....Have ya....

 



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When the season started I thought we had more than a good chance to improve the truly dismal record against last night's opposition. How wrong you can be. It seems that the budjet for the season is much improved on the last few seasons and one has to wonder what Quinton and his successors could have achieved with increased funds, at least the sides they put out gave 100% effort. However, that is conjecture, what is evident is that the Chairman/Board have been extremly generous to the manager and his squad, even to the extent of financing a training camp at the "seaside" during the summer! From the evidence of recent times this had paid very little by way of dividends. Performances are going downhill fast, players leave and any replacements are adding nothing to the squad. Players need to look at their performances and Mr Feeney should look at his, if he cannot manage at this level he should get out and fast. Further, the Club appears to be doing extremely well off the pitch, however, there is not a hope in hell of reaching the 1000 fan target with what we have seen of late, we will soon be back to the faithful 500. With all this in mind, IMO the Chairman/Board should take a long hard look at what they see and if they don't like it they should take decisive action.










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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Was it wise for Warren to constantly keep reminding the players that We have 19 new players We are a work in progress and wont gel right away. Thinking about it this has just given the team an excuse to coast along thinking we have plenty of time. We can just wait for it to click. Lets just see how things go for a couple of months etc. In reality they should of been told to get up to speed from match day one. I for one now say to Warren and the players. THE HONEYMOON IS OVER. Pull your fingers out. I expect a win by several clear goals next Tuesday.

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MarkX


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We don't do Tuesday nights.....especially wet ones

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Johnny Hartley wrote:

The thing that struck me when I started coming again under Peter Taylor's time was the quietly disappointed atmosphere, it wasn't angry, just quiet and disappointed. So while we have played well this season it has been nice to look around in matches at the faces and see how excited and involved the fans are watching the game, as we have something to cheer again, which hasn't been the case for a long time. I am sure the meet the manager evening will be similarly positive, as it is set up by WUSA, so comes from a positive supportive background, so I am sure concerns will be expressed in a constructive way. I remember in one job I did 20% of staff were to be sacked, and the bosses hid from the staff, except one, who held engagement meetings with staff to understand their concerns and produce answers, and I was so impressed with that, as it is no point having a manager who disappears when things are difficult, far better to be visible and there to address concerns.

Just answering a point about my comparison of the problems us and Liverpool have, I am not comparing us to them technically, it is just that it is so interesting to see the problems Klopp is having, as after years of success his team have really fallen apart in the League, and in his interviews for the first time ever he is hesitant and doesn't have the answers to fixing the problems caused by his players making individual mistakes, and them no longer dominating matches as they used to do, and them being inconsistent, and it just reminds me of our inconsistency, so we have played some brilliant football, as well as poor football, and it is frustrating not to play that brilliant football more often, when we know we have that ability in the team, but it hasnt been showing recently. So I was just meaning both teams have to work out how to play better more consistently. I think our problems will be easier to fix, if we build from the back with 4 4 2, play more accurately up the wings, that gives us more possession and chance to play the quality football we were playing earlier on, as I just want to see us play like that again!

 We can't be compared to them because we don't have 60,000 fans so we don't matter.



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Johnny Hartley


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This problem of us and Liverpool having bad results because of individual mistakes is hard for managers to fix as the individuals should be able not to make those mistakes in the first place, and if we'd not given away sloppy equalising goals against Dover and Hampton we'd be 4 points higher, in 6th place.

Warren post match blamed the keeper for 4 goals, looking at the highlights I see 3 where the keeper was at fault:

First goal seen the keeper let in a similar one when instead of going forward for his save he falls behind the goal line instead of staying well in front of it. James Dunne loses the player he is supposed to be marking.

Second goal keeper spills ball, pushing it forward, not holding it pushing it out for a corner.

Third goal really good by them, player was marked but managed to direct the ball into a corner of the goal. dont see this as a keeper error goal.

Fourth goal keeper heads the ball back into the central area, instead of safely to a wide area to either defender (defensive coaching says clear the ball to safe wide areas to make a hard angle to score from, not clear centrally where it leaves an easier angle to score from). If keeper stayed in area may have been able to catch ball.

Fifth goal really good finish, chipping the ball over the keeper, dont see this as a keeper error goal, unless one thinks he shouldn't have dived.

I enjoy Wellings games so much as this is such a competitive league, where one can't afford to make mistakes as the opposition are good enough to punish them, so all the games are a challenge. Despite all the problems we are still just 2 points off 6th place, so it is a question of whether Warren can identify the problems and fix them, or he can't.

I was wondering who would be best in a 4 4 2 if we had all to choose from, and settled on

Stefan Ade

Chi Taylor Kasim Aransibia

Rob H Manny Jamie Aaron

Myles

OK, I know everyone will have their own different choices, but doing this shows one what a good squad we have, as it has to leave out quality players like Amadou, Cameron, James Dunne, Sam. But Chi was amazing down the wing against Hungerford and should surely be kept in midfield from now on, and the suggested 4 wide players would get us back to that play down the wings that we did so well before going down the wrong path of a back 3 and long ball clearances from defence. So I really think we have the right players already, it is just a matter of finding the right system for them to play more to the strengths. Right, that's it from me on this topic, I will save anything else for the Friday meeting, which I trust will be constructive and balanced. Football can be a bit of a pantomime, with Warren the villain to boo, but we have a match on Tuesday at home to Slough, so there may be a happy ending yet, if Warren can spot and make the changes needed. See you on Friday folks.



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MarkX wrote:

We don't do Tuesday nights.....especially wet ones

 Another excuse they can use then. 



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Spills


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Johnny Hartley wrote:

This problem of us and Liverpool having bad results because of individual mistakes is hard for managers to fix as the individuals should be able not to make those mistakes in the first place, and if we'd not given away sloppy equalising goals against Dover and Hampton we'd be 4 points higher, in 6th place.

Warren post match blamed the keeper for 4 goals, looking at the highlights I see 3 where the keeper was at fault:

First goal seen the keeper let in a similar one when instead of going forward for his save he falls behind the goal line instead of staying well in front of it. James Dunne loses the player he is supposed to be marking.

Second goal keeper spills ball, pushing it forward, not holding it pushing it out for a corner.

Third goal really good by them, player was marked but managed to direct the ball into a corner of the goal. dont see this as a keeper error goal.

Fourth goal keeper heads the ball back into the central area, instead of safely to a wide area to either defender (defensive coaching says clear the ball to safe wide areas to make a hard angle to score from, not clear centrally where it leaves an easier angle to score from). If keeper stayed in area may have been able to catch ball.

Fifth goal really good finish, chipping the ball over the keeper, dont see this as a keeper error goal, unless one thinks he shouldn't have dived.

I enjoy Wellings games so much as this is such a competitive league, where one can't afford to make mistakes as the opposition are good enough to punish them, so all the games are a challenge. Despite all the problems we are still just 2 points off 6th place, so it is a question of whether Warren can identify the problems and fix them, or he can't.

I was wondering who would be best in a 4 4 2 if we had all to choose from, and settled on

Stefan Ade

Chi Taylor Kasim Aransibia

Rob H Manny Jamie Aaron

Myles

OK, I know everyone will have their own different choices, but doing this shows one what a good squad we have, as it has to leave out quality players like Amadou, Cameron, James Dunne, Sam. But Chi was amazing down the wing against Hungerford and should surely be kept in midfield from now on, and the suggested 4 wide players would get us back to that play down the wings that we did so well before going down the wrong path of a back 3 and long ball clearances from defence. So I really think we have the right players already, it is just a matter of finding the right system for them to play more to the strengths. Right, that's it from me on this topic, I will save anything else for the Friday meeting, which I trust will be constructive and balanced. Football can be a bit of a pantomime, with Warren the villain to boo, but we have a match on Tuesday at home to Slough, so there may be a happy ending yet, if Warren can spot and make the changes needed. See you on Friday folks.

James Dunne is not a quality player.



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I am not sure where this warren will fix it stuff comes from. He's had time to fix it. Aside from scraping past hungerford and a well earned point at Fleet the team has been abysmal last 10 or so games. We had a bit of a purple patch at start with a mixture of indifferent results I.e. Worthing etc. However we were **** despite staying up at the back end of last season nothing significantly changed in terms of performance and the levels are akin to that now - remember for at least 2/3 games dipo was played out of position!

He isn't up to it. I think the board will hold off but matter of how long.

Lastly, be majorly surprised if feeney recruits any if maybe a small proportion of any of the players at the club. He doesn't know the level and didn't how could he being aboard and always reminiscing about his NI caps playing in front of 60k. I would assume his focus is coaching and selection only.

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Sorry - another observation maloney, azeez, mackenzie, papadopoulos- look different players from some of the performances they turned in at the start. They now look either void of confidence or they aren't playing for the manager.

Still don't understand fully why nzala, Hyde and Francis have gone. Heard whispers they wasn't rated but wasn't really tested and Hyde didn't have a bad return. Is that related to man management? Who has come in instead 2 ex pros who have supposedly retired

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Dartford v Welling United match thread
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Our midfield has been a lot worse off since Hyde left.

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Danson Mark


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RE: Dartford v Welling United match thread
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Jimmy wrote:

Sorry - another observation maloney, azeez, mackenzie, papadopoulos- look different players from some of the performances they turned in at the start. They now look either void of confidence or they aren't playing for the manager.

Still don't understand fully why nzala, Hyde and Francis have gone. Heard whispers they wasn't rated but wasn't really tested and Hyde didn't have a bad return. Is that related to man management? Who has come in instead 2 ex pros who have supposedly retired

 Has Francis gone? I wasn't aware of that.



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StoneIsland


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RE: Dartford v Welling United match thread
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No he hasnt, just hasnt made the squad over Cameron. 



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